Grand National Prep Races: The Hennessy
The Hennessy Gold Cup is just over two weeks away and it is well documented at how influential the Newbury race is on the Grand National.
As things stand 84 horses are declared and with top-weight Denman’s connections indicating that the former Gold Cup winner is a likely runner at Newbury, we could be faced with an unusual handicap. Currently only 31 of the horses declared would be in the handicap if Denman stands his ground and two of those, Snoopy Loopy and The Tother One, have already been declared as ‘doubtful’ runners.
Denman’s presence would undoubtedly have a great effect on the traditional view of this race and what we might look for in the merits of a prospective winner. We could be faced with the prospect of a number of horses running from some way out of the handicap and, personally, I tend to find races like this unsatisfactory as a betting medium. A recent example being the Scottish National won by Iris De Balme at 66/1 from 26lbs out of the handicap.
Nevertheless, as a starting point for discussion here are some basic trends which you may want to expand upon in an attempt for us all to find the winner of the Hennessy:
No winner in the last ten years has been older than eight (nine winners six or seven)
Only one of the last ten winners failed to finish in the first two last time out
Nine out of the last ten winners had winning form over fences over at least three miles
Eight of the last ten winners were second season chasers
Applying all of the above will almost certainly leave a very short list to work from with the likes of What A Friend, Killyglen and Russian Trigger to consider.
The big novice chase at the Aintree Festival has been quite a useful guide to the Hennessy and as that race was won by Killyglen last season he looks to have quite a lot going for him. Howard Johnson’s gelding was beaten on his reappearance recently but big things are expected of his victor that day, Knockara Beau, and as Killyglen was conceding 16lb and racing over just two and half miles we should, perhaps, not be too surprised by the defeat. Killyglen looks the best bet of the second season chasers and hopefully his yard will be in better form by the time of the Newbury meeting.
Taking a wider view, lots of horses appeal but a couple I like are Nenuphar Collonges and Treacle.
Nenuphar Collonges looked like he needed the run (like many Alan King horses this year) recently at Wincanton and at just three pounds higher than his near miss at the Cheltenham Festival he definitely has a big handicap in him if he can keep his jumping together.
Irish challenger Treacle was, I thought, more impressive than the neck winning distance would suggest when winning the Munster National and Tom Taaffe can win another big handicap with this horse but may well decide to stay in Ireland to try and achieve that. Take note if he gets into the race and does make the journey to England. He looks the type of horse that could end up at Aintree in the Grand National itself.
Who do you fancy for the Hennessy and could they possibly go on and win the Grand National 2010?
Check out the latest Grand National Odds here Grand National Odds






This post has 110 comments
#1
November 12th, 2009 20:57
I be very interested to see how Casey Jones runs, to see if he’s Grand National material. At Down Royal he jumped left twice and dropped right out. The reports read he was staying on one pace, however to me he looked to be finishing best of all, (with the exception of the winner: The Listener)
He should have 10st 4lb an ideal weight if he takes part.
For the winner respected to Denman and Madison De Berlais who are the top two weights (and for good reason.)
#2
November 14th, 2009 19:17
Last year’s Irish Novices look very strong after Tranquil Sea bolted up today
Be very interested to see whether Trafford Lad and Casey Jones make it to Newbury and how they perform
Gone To Lunch has good form with Rare Bob and is 2 from 2 at Newbury
#3
November 15th, 2009 16:14
Admin, everyone, looking at the Hennessy from a GN perspective 13/28 GN winners lined up for a Hennessy before they won at Aintree. Aldaniti- 3rd, Corbiere 5th, Maori Venture 3rd, Rhyme N Reason- 5th(in ’85, may have performed better in a subsequent year), Mr Frisk- 3rd, Seagram 9th, Party Politics- 2nd, Rough Quest- 2nd, Earth Summit- 5th, Red Marauder- 5th, Bindaree- 5th, Hedgehunter- 4th, Comply Or Die 4th.
#4
November 15th, 2009 16:27
NTD says Ballyfitz will run in Hennessy.
#5
November 16th, 2009 00:41
Just thought I’d refresh the list of past first five placings from the Grand National 2010: Early Fancies. The figure in brackets is age in 2010.
RESULT FROM 2008:
1st Madison Du Berlais (9)
2nd Air Force One (8)
3rd Snoopy Loopy (12)
4th Dear Villez (8)
5th My Will (8)
RESULT FROM 2007:
1st Denman (10)
2nd Dream Alliance (9)
3rd Character Building (10)
4th Madison Du Berlais (9)
5th Knowhere (12)
RESULT FROM 2006:
1st State Of Play (10)
2nd Juveigneur (13)
3rd Precher Boy (11)
4th Omni Cosmo Touch (14)
5th Parson Legacy (12)
RESULT FROM 2005:
1st Trabolgan (12)
2nd L’ Ami (11)
3rd Cornish Rebel (12)
4th Comply Or Die (11)
5th All In The Stars (12)
RESULT FROM 2004:
1st Celestrial Gold (12)
2nd Ollie Magern (12)
3rd Royal Auclair (13)
4th Lord Transcend (13)
5th Gunther McBride (15)
The 2009 first five will be posted soon.
This is just for reference in case any are national candidates.
#6
November 16th, 2009 10:55
Crisp 73 your list of henessy runners is impressive I know as well that red rum finished a close second to red candle in 1973 before taking his second grand national.
#7
November 16th, 2009 17:12
Killyglen has been my main fancy for the Hennessy for a long while
But will wait for final declarations in case Denman doesn’t turn up – some of Nicholls’ need a run this year and if Kauto gets turned over this weekend you never know Denman might not show up at all
Would like to see a bold, but not mark-threatening, show from Casey Jones too with the GN in mind
#8
November 16th, 2009 18:31
Some Hennessy stats;
15/15 6-9yrs old.
15/15(first past the post) Hennessy winners had a 50%+ win/place strike rate- 14/15 had 59%+.
15/15 won or placed in a chase 24f or more
14/15 won a chase at 24f or more (Madison Du Berlais didn’t)
13/15- won three or more chases, the other 2 had at least a 40% win strike rate.
8/8- won a C1/C2 chase worth 19k+
At the moment (if Denman runs) I like Killyglen/Trafford Lad/Cappa Bleu but haven’t looked at that many as yet.
#9
November 16th, 2009 19:18
20/20 – either had never run at Newbury OR if they had run then they had at least a 50% strike rate at Newbury over fences (better if 100% – 9 of the previous 20 winners had 100% strike rate at Newbury – Denman & Madison among them)
Would agree with your first two picks Crisp but would have Gone To Lunch (2/2 at Newbury in £19k races, inc. Grade 2) instead of Cappa Bleu
#10
November 17th, 2009 09:53
I presume a Becher page is on the way?!
#11
November 17th, 2009 13:09
Trafford Lad out with an injury
#12
November 19th, 2009 15:21
I quite like Gone To Lunch for this. Very good novice chaser last season, winning 3 times from 8 starts and finishing placed on 4 other occasions, including finishing 2nd in the Scottish National under 11-10 and finishing 2nd at Punchestown in a Grade 1. Has some classy novice hurdles form in the past as well.
His run at Ascot the other day wasn’t a brilliant performance but he was carrying top-weight that day and most of his best form is going left-handed so Ascot probably didn’t suit him. He was turned over at a short price on his seasonal debut last year as well, so he probably doesn’t go well fresh and should come on for that.
He was actually dropped a few lbs for that Ascot run and his current mark of 151 gets him in the race on 10-03 if Denman runs, which is perfect. If Denman and Carruthers both line-up the race could be run at a frantic pace. It could end up being be a very stiff test, especially if the rain keeps coming. Gone To Lunch is very tough and stays further than 3m2f so he’ll still be going when others have cried enough. He is 2/2 around Newbury as well so he must like the place.
20/1 with SportingBet seems a fair price so I might get involved.
#13
November 19th, 2009 15:22
I quite like Gone To Lunch for this. Very good novice chaser last season, winning 3 times from 8 starts and finishing placed on 4 other occasions, including finishing 2nd in the Scottish National under 11-10 and finishing 2nd at Punchestown in a Grade 1. Has some classy novice hurdles form in the past as well.
His run at Ascot the other day wasn’t a brilliant performance but he was carrying top-weight that day and most of his best form is going left-handed so Ascot probably didn’t suit him. He was turned over at a short price on his seasonal debut last year as well, so he probably doesn’t go well fresh and should come on for that.
He was actually dropped a few lbs for that Ascot run and his current mark of 151 gets him in the race on 10-03 if Denman runs, which is perfect. If Denman and Carruthers both line-up the race could be run at a frantic pace. It could end up being be a very stiff test, especially if the rain keeps coming. Gone To Lunch is very tough and stays further than 3m2f so he’ll still be going when others have cried enough. He is 2/2 around Newbury as well so he must like the place.
20/1 with SportingBet seems a fair price so I might get involved.
#14
November 19th, 2009 16:37
Stayer he is up there on my list – Killyglen is top.
GTL with McCoy would be perfect but he might be booked to ride another. Would be worried if he wasn’t ridden by one of the better jockeys because he can lose his position in a race – and there should be plenty of pace if Carruthers lines up.
Form on soft with Rare Bob is significant. Every runner from last year’s Drinmore has either won a Grade 1 (Trafford Lad won the race itself) or a major handicap since the race. Last year’s Irish Novices look very very good.
I am going to wait for the day and going before betting though.
#15
November 19th, 2009 19:35
Pablo,
I agree with those comments regarding GTL. With GTL running at Punchestown you can tie in his form with some of the best Irish novices. You mentioned the strength of the Drinmore form and at Punchestown GTL just finished in front of Joncol on levels. Joncol then split Tranquil Sea and Trafford Lad a few weeks ago at Naas (giving Tranquil Sea 9lbs) and Tranquil Sea ran out an impressive winner of the PP a few days ago. The form looks better and better. In light of Tranquil Sea’s win in the PP, Trafford Lad attracted some support for the Hennessy. He’s a non-runner unfortunately, but on a line through Joncol, GTL looks to have a great chance.
I agree about the jockey though. AP has ridden him most often recently and seems to get on well with the horse. Problem is that he has loyalties to JP, Henderson and Jonjo so might be required elsewhere. I think Barry Geraghty is back though, which is good news as I would expect him to ride Barber’s Shop (if he runs), so that’s one less that AP could be on.
#16
November 19th, 2009 20:03
Is AP going to be on Cappa Bleu?
As much as i’d love to see Denman win the race, i think i shall stick with the trends and favour Killyglen who has plenty of stamina, who it turns out was beaten by a potentially very good horse LTO. Killyglen won the same race as SoP did at Aintree in April and i was very impressed with his jumping
#17
November 19th, 2009 22:32
Barber’s Shop is interesting – travels really well in his races and is, perhaps, a doubtful stayer – although Saddlers’ Hall and Bustino doesn’t look that bad in his pedigree. I wouldn’t be suprised if he won given his class but I cannot bring myself to back him – if that makes sense!?!
Killyglen & GTL with perhpas a saver on Barber’s Shop
Ben/Neil what do you make of BS?
#18
November 19th, 2009 22:33
Spelling dodgy but hope you get the gist
#19
November 20th, 2009 06:27
Before I discovered Ben’s system I thought that the Queen’s horse was a real threat on the Gold Cup scene. Looking at his dosage with Sadlers Wells and Northern Dancer effecting his figures he as the right profile for any staying race. Hennessy, Gold cup or National.
#20
November 20th, 2009 09:25
Pablo,
I know AP rode Cappa Bleu at Aintree but I presumed that was because Paul Maloney was injured/banned that day? Paul rides most of Evans’ horses including State of Play in the same ownership. Unless he has had a falling out with the owners or lost their confidence, I presume he will be on Cappa Bleu.
#21
November 20th, 2009 09:44
Just to add to my last post, Paul Maloney rides for SOP and Cappa Bleu’s owners in the first at Ascot today so it seems he’s not fallen out of their favour.
Neil S,
Interesting info with regards to Barber’s Shop amd his dosage. He strikes me as a dubious stayer to be honest and even his trainer is not confident that he sees out 3m+. I’m not sure he will definitely run if the ground comes up testing and I can see them waiting for the King George.
#22
November 20th, 2009 11:25
The only JP McManus horse in the race appears to be Arbor Supreme, which assuming Denman is a certain runner would carry 10’0. AP McCoy hasn’t made a weight below 10’4 in the last 12 months so would probably not be on board.
Assuming Geraghty is back to ride Barbers Shop that would leave McCoy with a straight choice between Alberta’s Run and Gone to Lunch by my reckoning.
#23
November 20th, 2009 11:57
Good point about the weight Gammers. AP looks very unlikely to ride Arbor Supreme if Denman runs. With regards to Albertas Run, he’s been declared for a 2m3f Chase at Ascot tomorrow. He’s an interesting runner there, as you would expect the trip to be too short but the conditions of the race mean that he meets the likes of Monet’s Garden and VPU on very favourable terms. Don’t know if they are running him as a pipe-opener for the Hennessy (possibly too close as only 7 days away) or they are running him over a short trip to try to get him dropped a few lbs? If he does still go for the Hennessy, he is a much better horse on good ground so if it’s testing I would expect AP to ditch AR for GTL.
#24
November 20th, 2009 12:22
Barbers Shop Dosage is 2-0-8-9-3 to put it in Crisp’s terms he’s 37.5 to 62.5 speed to stamina ratio.
#25
November 20th, 2009 21:16
Courtesy of Nick Mordin:
Fourteen of the last fifteen winners of Newbury’s Hennessy Gold Cup had these things in common;
* They had won at least half of eleven or fewer completed
chase starts – or would have if one photo had gone the other way.
* They’d finished first or second in all their completed chase starts that season.
* If they hadn’t run that season they’d won or run second on their last seasonal debut.
* They’d finished first or second in a chase that is today worth at least 20,000 pounds
or would have done but for falling or unseating.
Killyglen meets these stats!
#26
November 20th, 2009 22:35
Its Killyglen for me, just looking at his dosage stats though and only 2 horses are similar with that being Denman and Teeton Mill, which are pretty big names to live up to.
#27
November 20th, 2009 23:49
TC
Killyglen has Presenting as Sire (Denman too) & therefore Busted staying influence (Denman clearly, plus Teeton Mill & What’s Up Boys)
Also has Strong Gale on dam’s side – negative influence for GN but not for Hennessy – Sibton Abbey was sired by Strong Gale and Strong Flow had Strong Gale on dam’s side.
So I don’t think Killyglen can be faulted through his breeding.
RP describes him as “an imposing son of Presenting”.
#28
November 21st, 2009 00:05
I’m not faulting his breeding, i just think he could turn out to be a very special horse
#29
November 21st, 2009 00:16
Cannot wait for the race – especially given the disappointment with the turnout for the Becher
#30
November 21st, 2009 07:26
I just a feeling that this year’s Grand National winner will be amongst this field. It’s not produce the winner in ages, I think, in the same season . Anyway time will tell.
#31
November 22nd, 2009 10:04
Hi guys
Going back to Barbers Shop, I’m with Neil. He should have no problem staying the Hennessy trip or indeed the Gold Cup trip. Inexperience caught him out in last seasons Gold Cup and he didn’t know how to jump when the pace quickened and the race started getting serious. He will have learned an awful lot from that and I wouldn’t be striking this lad out based on the fact he doesn’t stay.
Regards
#32
November 23rd, 2009 10:11
Will Barber’s Shop definitely run? Nicky Henderson reportedly has doubts regarding his stamina and if Newbury gets a lot of rain (which is possible given the forecast) I can see the horse bypassing this and waiting for the King George.
#33
November 23rd, 2009 12:44
If the grounds a bog then it might pay to keep with the featherweights, also I wonder if Denman will run in such conditions.
#34
November 23rd, 2009 14:13
I agree Neil. If the ground comes up very testing I will be having a good look at those at the foot of the weights. At the moment SIEGEMASTER interests me as one that would go well in that scenario. His last run looks at face value to be disappointing but 2m4f against class horses like Forpadydeplasterer anf Herecomesthetruth was always going to be sharp enough for him (he’s never won over less than 2m6f). This horse needs a trip and has won a Grade 2 Chase on heavy ground so the going or trip shouldn’t be a problem if Newbury gets a load of rain this week.
#35
November 23rd, 2009 16:23
Comments about Barbers shop running have been positive from what I have read on the RP site.
Same cant be said about Killyglen who probably will need good ground.
Are we about to let Snowy Morning fly under the radar here guys? He meets all my stats AND lets not forget he went off fave in 2007. This year, he is 6lb better off with Denman. Ok I know Denman was a freak horse that year, but Snowy has been 3rd in the GN since, so can we really let him go off at 25/1 this year without having at least a small ew bet.
He has won the last two times out as well…
#36
November 23rd, 2009 19:09
Lots of good horses potentially running off feather weights…
Lets not forget former winner State of Play will be running with just 10’0 on his back.
That being said, I still think it will be Denman and Killyglen battling it out on the home straight. Hoping KG will go on all grounds having previously won a Novice Chase at Ayr on heavy ground – albeit only a 4 runner.
And to add to the ‘will AP by onboard GTL’ discussion above – I’m now working on the assumption that McCoy will be at Newcastle to partner Binocular.
#37
November 23rd, 2009 19:40
I am with Killyglen too – and think he will run ok. Got a mate works at the racecourse and tells me they are expecting the ground to be good to soft with no major downpours expected. Just a word of caution on 9 years olds in this race though (seeing a few being touted above). One winner from the last 15 runnings and that was Teeton Mill who I think most of us will remember as a late developing, really classy type. He was well up the lists for the Gold Cup that year as well. Would not put the likes of State of Play or Snowy Morning in that category.
#38
November 24th, 2009 09:13
Gammers,
If Binocular goes for the Fighting Fifth then i’m sure AP will be on board meaning he won’t be able to ride in the Hennessy. I guess it depends on the weather over the next few days. I’m not sure they would risk Binocular on very testing ground but at the moment Newcastle is good-soft, so unless there’s a real deluge he’ll probably run.
#39
November 24th, 2009 10:46
I’ve had a bit on SOP @ 25/1 as the horse is seemingly being backed and that price might not last much longer. I know he’s 3lbs out of the handicap but 145 seems lenient to me and he’s effectively running off 148 which is only 3lbs higher than his Hennessy win. Goes well first time out so he should run well.
#40
November 24th, 2009 12:53
Just read Killyglen is an unsure runner in the Hennessy on Sporting life website.
#41
November 24th, 2009 14:21
Surprised connections of KILLYGLEN are considering bypassing the race. I don’t see him as winning the race (can’t put my finger on why I have that opinion!) but he could easily run into the places. I wouldn’t say the ground would be a huge hindrance.
#42
November 24th, 2009 17:22
I think the age stat could be ‘at risk’ this year( though there has been a 10yr old winner in last thirty years)
I make Killyglen and What A Friend top on the stats though both of their camps seem concerned about the ground.
So perhaps the winner will come from my second batch, needs whittling down perhaps next decs stage will help me out, and consists of;
According To Pete, Casey Jones, Cappa Bleu, Carruthers, Nenuphar Collonges, Siegemaster, War Of Attrition.
Going down the road of 1st or 2nd last time out,19/19, and won one of their last 4 chases, 19/19, Mon Mome is spot on. I think he’s probably just about at his best at around 27f, will enjoy the going.
I know trainers sometimes give it some ‘flannel’ but I’m in agreement with Mr Nicholls concerning Denman. I will be amazed if he finishes in the first three. This is, potentially a much stronger Hennessy than the one he won.
#43
November 24th, 2009 17:26
Unless he’s injured I really feel they should go for the race because he didn’t act at Cheltenham, has Strong Gale in pedigree so unlikely to stay in National (plus high weighting), the ground is likely to be even more testing in the Welsh National – which leaves the Totesport Bowl at Aintree or the Aon.
He’s never again going to get this chance in a handicap.
#44
November 24th, 2009 17:28
Was on about Killyglen.
#45
November 24th, 2009 17:40
Carruthers out
#46
November 24th, 2009 18:02
Crisp73
I also have my doubts about Denman finishing in the top 3, he may be a place lay…..
#47
November 24th, 2009 18:50
Really hope Killyglen goes for the hennessy, they won’t get a better chance to win a big prize in a handicap again.
Does anyone think Big Buck’s could get overturned also, he’s going to be a very short price and i think Mourad could give him a good race
#48
November 24th, 2009 19:13
Not sure whether I posted this on here but…
None of the horses Denman beat in 2007 is now rated above 150 – i.e. none is top class
Instinct and ratings lead me to believe that at least one of the Novices or Barbers Shop (doubts about him – Imperial Commander has improved buckets since last year’s PP but now sure how good Abbeybraney really is) will have the 10+ lb improvement needed to make Denman have to run a career best to win – just cannot see how he can do that given his problems last year
Strictly on the book State Of Play should beat Mon Mome – but again he didn’t beat much when he won the Hennessy either
This is the best renewal for a long time, possibly of the past 20 years – 6 Grade 1 winners, 2 previous winners
No horse that has run in the Gold Cup the same year has won the Hennessy in the past 20 years
Like Crisp I feel that something has to give – just not sure what
Have had a little on Killyglen but will have to wait for NRNB to go in again or switch allegiances
#49
November 24th, 2009 19:19
Should read “not” sure how good Abbeybraney really is
#50
November 25th, 2009 10:20
Sorry crisp, but you say 1st or 2nd last time out is a 19/19 stat?
Maidson Du Berlais was 6th in his last run, Whats Up Boys also 6th before his win in 2001 and Gingermbre was 3rd.
Have I misread your post?
#51
November 25th, 2009 10:48
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/racing/article6930266.ece
Looks like Killyglen runs
#52
November 25th, 2009 10:58
Whats up boys was 2nd in the whitbread to Ad Hoc in his previous race to the hennessy
17/19 winners finished top 2 LTO, the esception was Gingembre who finished 3rd in the charlie hall prior to the hennessy and Madison who finished 6th
#53
November 25th, 2009 13:08
Sorry Daniel, fellow bloggers, 1st or 2nd last time out ‘in a chase’ 19/20, Madison was 6th- I use Be My Royal not Gingembre- the money was paid out on him wasn’t it?
18/20 had a win/place strike rate of 60% or more. Madison didn’t,59%, (he’d won 7 chases – only other winner in last 20 runnings to have won so many chases was Suny Bay- is there a young horse in the field with experience of Newbury and won at least a handful of chases?-
nor did Be My Royal, 50%.
#54
November 25th, 2009 13:44
Snowy Morning is 100% on main trends. Killyglen v Snowy Morning?
#55
November 25th, 2009 21:02
The Hennessy used to signal the start of the jumping season to me, in the past. Looked forward to it and think, ” One of these could well win the national in the spring.”
Using Ben’s method of Dosage (caution this race has produce a lot of Dosage weak result: ie six points or less) I get it down to:
Casey Jones
Gone To Lunch
Chelsea Harbour
Ballyfitz
Kornati Kid
Nenuphar Collonges
Niche Market
State Of Play
Arbor Supreme
Dream Alliance
Offshore Account
Operation Houdini
The Package
Don’t know yet which one I’ll pick but on RPR it would be Gone To Lunch whose RPR is tied with Chelsea Harbour & Niche Market but has a better TS than them.
#56
November 25th, 2009 21:27
As for those with National written all over them, from the Dosage angle:
Denman (shame!)
Barbers Shop
Killyglen
War Of Attrition
Casey Jones
What A Friend
Gone To Lunch
Carruthers (non runner on saturday)
Chelsea Harbour
Ballyfitz
Kornati Kid
Nenuphar Collonges
Niche Market
State Of Play
Arbor Supreme
Dream Alliance
Horner Woods
Offshore Account
Hennessy
The Package (needs to improve his OR)
This is just a theortical list who could become National candidates.
#57
November 25th, 2009 21:49
Is Arbor Supreme an intended runner in the hennessy, strongly fancied him for the national for a while now. He’s also entered in the Welsh national
AP could have the choice of him and GTL next April
#58
November 25th, 2009 22:07
Don’t know I took the 5 day declaration from Racing Post. State of play though looks to be aimed at it because of his light weight.
#59
November 25th, 2009 22:19
I remain a fan of Killyglen – and have a sneaky suspicion that some traimers will want their horses to run well but don’t want them winning a race that may say their charge take a hike in the weights. Williams has stated all along that SOP main aim is the 2010 National. And for a similar reason I can’t see Mon Mome being fully wound up.
#60
November 26th, 2009 09:03
Win place strike rate should be 20/20, 50% win/place strike rate, 17/20 60%.
#61
November 26th, 2009 09:41
As Neil has pointed out Dosage is not a tool to be relied too heavily on in the Hennessy. I feel there are stronger stats that can be applied when looking to Narrow the Field before applying Dosage.
I have a feeling the Hennessey will have a large impact on the Gold Cup (I have put some interesting stats up on my blog) & National this season.
I suppose the one problem from a handicapping perspective would be if Denman ran a blinder but a couple still finish a few lengths ahead of ‘The Tank’. This would essentially destroy the handicap mark of the animals that finish in front of Denman.
What a Friend is looking interesting but imagine he would be better than a National Runner (i.e. better than a handicapper).
#62
November 26th, 2009 11:30
21 line up:
111/22F- Denman (IRE) 240 9 11-12 P F Nicholls R Walsh
31615-5 Joe Lively (IRE) 21 10 11-0 C L Tizzard Giles Hawkins (7)
102001- Mon Mome (FR) 238 9 10-13 Miss V Williams A Coleman
23/553-2 My Will (FR) 21 9 10-9 P F Nicholls Nick Scholfield
121/210- Barbers Shop 260 7 10-8 N J Henderson B J Geraghty
5/11P1-2 Killyglen (IRE) 27 7 10-6 J Howard Johnson Denis O’regan
132-P23 War Of Attrition (IRE) 21 10 10-6 M F Morris N P Madden
3P611/P- An Accordion (IRE) 294 8 10-4 D E Pipe Tom Scudamore
P15P-14 Casey Jones (IRE) 21 8 10-4 Noel Meade Noel Fehily
3P/1161- What A Friend 223 6 10-4 P F Nicholls Sam Thomas
11P2-20 Gone To Lunch (IRE) 28 9 10-3 J Scott S E Durack
F20-611 Snowy Morning (IRE) 195 9 10-2 W P Mullins P Townend
4F0-526 Chelsea Harbour (IRE) 14 9 10-0 Thomas Mullins A E Lynch
1/1111-3 Cappa Bleu (IRE) 34 7 10-0 Evan Williams Wayne Hutchinson
1122P-4 Ballyfitz 14 9 9-12 N A Twiston-Davies P J Brennan
3/24116- Kornati Kid 262 7 9-11 P J Hobbs Richard Johnson
1063-46 Nenuphar Collonges (FR) 21 8 9-11 A King Robert Thornton
31401-0 Niche Market (IRE) 21 8 9-11 R H Buckler Andrew Glassonbury (3)
560/144- State of Play 238 9 9-11 Evan Williams Paul Moloney
01P025/ New Alco (FR) 584 8 9-11 Ferdy Murphy Michael O’Connell (5)
1U2/20-0 Offshore Account (IRE) 33 9 9-7 C F Swan D J Casey
#63
November 26th, 2009 12:55
The impression I getting both from my racing paper and you guys is the horse has got to be in form with either a win or place last time out. I think Sir Alex’s horse fits the bill nicely. So while Man u is probably winning again his What A Friend could be winning at Newbury.
#64
November 26th, 2009 13:09
Really wouldnt touch What A Friend at all with Ruby choosing Denman
#65
November 26th, 2009 13:16
I’m not too sure about this “first or second last time out” stat. I think it’s more of a coincidence that quite a few of the most recent Hennessy winners have hit it. Madison Du Berlais ran a pretty tame race at Ascot before winning the Hennessy (I remember because I backed him that day!) Take What a Friend as an example. He hits the stat by winning a 4-runner egg-and-spoon at the end of last season. State of Play, who last time out ran 4th in the National, does not hit the stat, but which is the better level of form? Would you really put a line through Denman, Barber’s Shop, Casey Jones or Cappa Bleu on this count?
On another note, i’m not convinced by What a Friend. He’s got a slightly odd head carriage which worries me and his best form seems to be in small fields. I’m not too sure how well he’ll cope with 20 other runners crowding him.
#66
November 26th, 2009 14:26
The Stayer
I have to say I am a big stats man but even I found myself questioning the ‘first or second last time out’ stat.
Barbers Shop was the one that made me think again. To my eyes the Henderson horse ran a blinder in the Gold Cup considering his inexperience and I think it would be folly to rule him out based on his last run. He may well fall down somewhere else but it wont be using this stat to rule him out.
Some stats need a degree of flexibility.
#67
November 26th, 2009 14:27
Regarding the 1st and 2nd stat, i’m not sure it is a coincidence. The winners of the hennessy are very classy horses and you’d expect the winner to have a previously very good record and you are looking for one that is ahead of the handicapper.
Madison is the only exception, bet he finished 4th in the hennessy in the previous year
#68
November 26th, 2009 14:52
TC,
I agree with the bit about the horse’s general previous form, hence i’ve taken note of the 50% win & place strike rate stat. However, whilst general form is important i’m not so sure i’m happy discounting a horse on the basis of a single run.
#69
November 26th, 2009 15:18
TC
You are correct in that the stat isn’t a coincidence but say a horse came 3rd by a neck and a nose, would we then rule it out because it came 3rd?
As I said, I am a fan of the stats approach (obviously) but some times we need a small degree of flexibility.
Gone to Lunch & Barbers Shop both have their last piece of form as a 0 but I would suggest Barbers is possibly more ahead of the handicapper than GTL.
#70
November 26th, 2009 15:40
I am prepared to stick with the stats for the handicaps while they work, if they have finished close 3rd and 4ths, the handicapper will be well aware and rate them accordingly. GTL has had plenty of exposure (i’d be surprised if they desperately would want to win with him, with the national the obvious target) and Barber’s Shop – OK he finished 7th in a Gold Cup, but has been exposed well enough and his rating wouldnt be far wrong.
I am going to stick with the unexposed horses and i think Killyglen could turn out to be a very good horse
#71
November 26th, 2009 15:41
Gone To Lunch is a good example of my point actually Ben. His last three runs read as 2, 2, 8. Without his last run at Ascot a few weeks ago he would hit the “1st or 2nd last time out” stat but if you apply the stat you would discount him on the basis of that Ascot run. However, the 2nd place two runs ago was back in May and GTL appears to be a horse that progresses from a prep run. Thus, his run at Ascot should increase his chance of winning this, not decrease it, and the handicapper dropped him a few lbs too!
As a side note the form from that race is working out quite well with Shining Gale winning the other day, Hold Em running a blider in the Paddy Power and Hello Bud putting in a couple of solid efforts. A certain Madison Du Berlais was beaten 30l in that same Ascot race last year……
#72
November 26th, 2009 16:08
Diverging from the Hennessy for a moment, there is another race over a marathon distance this weekend which may provide clues for GN2010, the ‘Bar One Racing Handicap Chase’ (formerly the Porterstown Chase) over 3m 5f at Fairyhouse.
Its a 0-140 rated chase with top weight going to L’ami off a mark of 138, so nothing that would immediately get into the GN, but a good win here could see the horse raised to a mark that would get in the GN.
I don’t believe the race has gone on to produce any National winners in the last 10 years, but horses entered who are on my radar for GN2010 include:
Parsons Pistol
Garryowen Star
I think at least a few of us nominated Parsons Pistol as one to keep an eye on this year…
#73
November 26th, 2009 18:59
Some great work on here guys – thanks very much.
I’m finding this a very tricky race and am tempted to stick with my initial fancy of Killyglen but I’m slightly concerned by the on/off situation with if he was going to run. My experience is not positive with horses like that.
My other original fancy that is due to run, Nenuphar Collonges, is more of a horse I am sure is well handicapped enough to win a big race – I’m just not sure it will be this one. His jumping can be suspect at times and Newbury can find out most of those with jumping frailties.
Upon closer inspection for a more likely winner I’m finding it hard to understand why State Of Play has been dropped to a mark of 145? Winner of last year’s Charlie Hall only three runs ago and fourth in the National off 150 and then gets dropped to his Hennessy winning mark of 145? I don’t understand that?
Any ideas?
He goes so well fresh that I think he is well worth an interest in a very difficult race.
One last thing – Ben – I’m a big fan of Barbers Shop but I have a nagging doubt about him really seeing out the Gold Cup (or Hennessy)distance. Winning a very slowly run three mile one furlong race at Sandown doesn’t really convince me he gets the trip – can you shine any lights as to why/if you think he will?
Thanks
Darren
(Admin)
#74
November 26th, 2009 19:06
The way i’m reading into the Killyglen doubts over whether or not he takes is chance is that they know that they have a very good horse that has not been hit by the handicapper yet. They feel that there are many options available for him to win a big handicap prize and want to leave the options open
#75
November 26th, 2009 19:36
If Killyglen is as good as HoJo thinks then he will get hit by the handicapper sooner rather than later. He isn’t in the Welsh National so it is now or never for a handicap for him I feel. Strange because trainer has previously stated that he loves soft ground and has mentioned that he might be a Gold Cup horse.
#76
November 26th, 2009 19:48
Gold Cup has been mentioned for Killyglen, i’m surprised he isnt entered for the King George. Would have thought that the Totebowl at Aintree is quite high on the list of targets
#77
November 26th, 2009 22:35
Hi Darren
As you are aware I use Dosage as an analysis tool and Barbers Shop’s figures do suggest that he should have no problem with staying trips. As I have mentioned before I feel inexperience caught him out in the Gold Cup and he will have learned an awful lot from the race.
Whether he will win the Hennessy, I am undecided yet.
Basically, on pedigree he should stay.
I’m with you on StateofPLay, cannot understand why he has been dropped to his Hennessy mark.
#78
November 26th, 2009 23:26
Got some stats for you lot (not Dosage related) these stats are straight out of my racing paper (Weekender).
STAT 1: Only 5 of the last 20 winners carried more than 11 stones.
Denman 2 years ago won on an OR of 161, this year he set to carry 174. Trabologan 4 years ago won carring number 1 saddlecloth, however that year was a weak renewal. He was the first since Burrough Hill Lad in 1984. In recent times the as been only 2 horses who competed off an OR of 170 or more (THE FELLOW 176 & GARRISON SAVANNAH 175) in 1992 & 1991 respectfully. THE FELLOW was a close third while GARRISON SAVANNAH was pulled up. Both was at the height of their game.
Recently 8 winners from 1999 have carried an OR from 136 to 150.
STAT 2: 8 of the last 10 winners had contested between 4 & 6 chases.
One of the freak statistics in HN is that such inexperienced chaser have done so well in the Hennessy, a race that demands such lofty standards in the jumping department. However handicap form is essential unless the horse has Gold Cup aspirations. Like Denman & Trabolgan.
The remaining winners had finished first or second in handicap company.
This stat does not go well for:
What A Friend
Killyglen
Cappa Bleu
Unless they are a budding star in the making.
STAT 3: Since 1994, all bar 3 winners had a strike rate of 40% or better.
An eye catching win to run ratio is important and one of the reasons why a lightly raced chaser do so well.
Avoid any which has lost the winning habit or ran moderately last time. Madison Du Berlais may have come back from a poor run but he is the exception.
Losing the winning habit goes against War Of Attrtion & My Will.
Hope these stats help you find the winner.
Myself I’am keeping with Ben’s Dosage Angle (list of candidate posted earlier). Along with Timeform’s rating and picking Gone To Lunch and State Of Play. It’s all about finishing the season with a profit with me, instead of an individual race.
The Stats says Barbers Shop by the way.
#79
November 27th, 2009 00:19
Here is the stats on Best RPR in past 12 months, data only goes back 10 years.
2008 (FORM:25F-6) Madison Du Berlais, 11-4, 7yo, 150 OR, RPR 4 from top, Best RPR 2nd ASCO class 1 listed HANC 24f 3 runs since.
2007 (FORM:1111-) Denman, 11-12, 7yo, 161 OR, RPR 8 from top, Best RPR won NEWB class 2 NOVC 24f 1 run since.
2006 (FORM 1151-) State Of Play, 11-4, 6yo, 145 OR, RPR top, Best RPR won AINT class 2 HANC 25f 0 runs since.
2005 (FORM 1221-) Trabolgan, 11-12, 7yo, 151 OR, RPR 10 from the top, Best RPR won CHEL RSA CHASE 24.5f 0 runs since.
2004 (FORM 321-1) Celestial Gold , 10-5, 6yo, 142 OR, RPR top, Best RPR won CHEL PADDY POWER 20.5f 0 run since.
2003 (FORM -11F1) Strong Flow , 11-0, 6yo , 140 OR, RPR 9 from the top, Best RPR won KELS class 2 HANC 25f 2 runs since.
2002 (FORM P41/3) Gingembre, 10-13, 8yo, 149 OR, RPR 3 from top, Best RPR 3rd WETH class 1 gd2 CH 25f 0 runs since.
2001 (FORM 1112-) Whats UP Boys, 10-12, 7yo, 145 OR, RPR 14 from top, Best RPR won AINT mildmay novice chase NOVC 25f 1 run since.
2000 (FORM 117-2) King’s Road, 10-7, 7yo, 137 OR, RPR 7 from top, Best RPR 2nd WINC class 2 HANC 25.5f 0 runs since.
1999 (FORM 11F-1) Ever Blessed, 10-0 (10oh), 7yo, 136 OR, RPR 16 from top, Best RPR won CHEP class 2 HANC 24f 0 runs since.
Trainers whom targeted this race (win-place-runners):
P F Nicholls (2-3-17)
D E Pipe (1-1-5)
Evan Williams (1-0-2)
N A Twiston-Davies (1-1-11)
N J Henderson (1-2-9)
P J Hobbs (1-1-10)
Noel Meade (0-1-1)
W P Mullins (0-2-5)
Win-Runs ratio for age:
5yo 0-4, 6yo 3-28, 7yo 6-56, 8yo 1-35, 9 yo 0-26, 10 yo 0-18 11 yo 0-4, 12yo 0-1
#80
November 27th, 2009 03:44
Fascinating race.
War/snowy/state will think they are on holidays with those wts. 10.6,10.2 and 10.0.
Think I will stick to the 19/20 trend, which gives me – mon mome, my will, killyglen, what a friend and snowy morning. Add in price, age etc. means that 16/20 points to – what a friend and killyglen.
But I hope snowy morning wins, he deserves a big pot and with 10.2 will he ever have a better chance. Hope mullins will sacrifice the GN for this race and not the other way round.
crisp, 73,
I’m sure you won’t let mon mome go off at 94/1 without a wee bet, the night before he was 156/1 with betfair, can you adam and eve it. You never know, he did win by 12 L. and left them for dead at the elbow.
Fascinating race.
#81
November 27th, 2009 09:11
It is a fascinating renewal miinnehoma. The fact that the recent Grand National winner is one of the 50/1 outsiders tells you the strength of this field. It’s not difficult to make a case for many of them.
Ben, Darren,
I backed SOP at 25/1 earlier in the week after coming to the same conclusion as you guys. SOP’s OR seems to be in continual decline despite the fact that in his last 3 runs he’s won a Charlie Hall and has finished a very creditable 4th in a National.
In 2006 he won this race in soft ground, carrying 11-4 off a rating of 145. He’s back down to 145 now but is effectively running off 148 as he’s 3lbs out of the handicap. I know this is a hotter race than the 2006 Hennessy, but he’s got no weight, goes on pretty much any ground and as a previous winner has no course or distance concerns. The stable jockey who clearly knows the horse well has also picked him over the more fancied stable mate.
I know he may fall down on some of the stats but he’s got every chance of going close surely?
#82
November 27th, 2009 10:35
CASEY JONES a non-runner.
Vet Cert.
#83
November 27th, 2009 10:35
Casey Jones out – vets certificate
#84
November 27th, 2009 10:36
Beat me to it Ben
#85
November 27th, 2009 10:52
Echo, (echo) . The connections of C J must be very disappointed. Wonder if they plan to run him in another Grand National trial like for instance Welsh National.
#86
November 27th, 2009 11:00
Not entered, I think. Definitely needs handicap/big field experience – Paddy Power or Pierse at Leopardstown maybe
#87
November 27th, 2009 11:11
20/20 – 6-9 yr old
20/20 – 50% win/place strike rate,
(17/20 60%, the three with less than 60% had ran 9 or more chases)
20/20 – 3 or more chases wins/ 2 chase wins at a 40% or more win strike rate
8/8 – won a chase worth at least 19k
19/20 – 13 or less chases (Madison Du Berlais hadn’t)
19/20 – 1st or 2nd last time out ( MDB didn’t)
18/20 – won 1 of their last 3 chases (MDB and Cogent hadn’t)
18/20 – OR 153 or lower (Denman and Suny Bay weren’t)
18/20 – won/placed at 25f (MDB and Cogent hadn’t)
Killyglen, Casey Jones, Snowy Morning for me.
#88
November 27th, 2009 11:12
Bugger.
#89
November 27th, 2009 11:25
Don’t know if anyone follows Timeform but this is how they rate the horses:
188 State Of Play, Gone To Lunch,
187 Casey Jones,
184+ Denman,
184 Offshore Account, Snowy Morning, Joe Lively,
183 Chelsea Harbour,
182+ What A Friend, Barbers Shop,
182 Niche Market
#90
November 27th, 2009 11:32
It was interesting to read the list of last 10 winners, because I had a preconcieved idea of what they would be. I thought, up and coming chaser, destined for great things [Gold Cup etc..]. That is true, up to a point, but it seems like a graveyard for horses in that category [Trabolgan, Ever Blessed, Strong Flow]. The ones that fare better as very good handicappers seem to do better [Whats Up Boys]. It may be won by a young horse, but it must be a very gruelling race at that stage of their career.
#91
November 27th, 2009 12:26
Stayer as you probably know I follow timeform. Its interesting with CJ out and the facts about horses rated above 170 the is a 4 pound difference between the joint top ratings and the next highest. Pablo I used the welsh national as an example off top of my head. The could be other races. Timeform top rated has never won the national, at least since I’ve been doing it.
#92
November 27th, 2009 12:37
Excellent points Maureen
I have been really keen on Killyglen from day 1 but worry about his lack of handicap experience given that he disappointed in the RSA – seems to be that young horses have to go close in RSA or in a handicap to fare well in the Hennessy (although every horse can be forgiven one poor run).
However, I am getting more and more keen on Gone To Lunch. He also disappointed in the RSA but has other things going for him such as:
10’3
2/2 at Newbury
He will stay & goes on the ground
2nd in Scottish National (big field handicap – giving over a stone to Hello Bud)
Appears well-handicapped – form ties in nicely with Rare Bob and Joncol (last year’s Irish Novices look a decent bunch – Cooldine, Trafford Lad, Tranquil Sea, Casey Jones etc).
Rare Bob didn’t stay in the Irish National but wasn’t beaten far in 4th and taking riders’ claims into consideration he was effectively giving Niche Market 7lb and Church Island & A New Story 13lb. Joncol gave Tranquil Sea (trotted up in Paddy Power) 9lb earlier in the season and wasn’t beaten far – Gone To Lunch had the better of Joncol at levels.
Negatives – no McCoy on board but hopefully Durack will be strong enough on him because he takes some urging to give of his best & can make the odd error. He was 8th on his reappearance but only beaten 13.5 lengths off top weight in the race that Madison Du Berlais was 6th in last year before winning the Hennessy.
#93
November 27th, 2009 19:39
I think if Denman wins tomorrow’s Hennessy that it would be the best weight carrying performance since Arkle. Looking at those which failed to carry an OR of 170 plus. Watch his price tumble for the Gold Cup. Also looks a strong Hennessy that for the National you might have to look further than the top five (depending on how close to Denman in lengths they get).
Myself I just don’t see it happening, but you never know.
Looking forward to what should be a extremely good race.
Happy Punting!
#94
November 28th, 2009 13:36
this is going to be a great race.
I can’t pick one,. hard to even get down to three!
may just go for an outsider so its worth chasing that place money, War of Attrition or even Mon Mome not without a chance ey.
Harder to pick the winner than the national itself, so good luck everyone.
#95
November 28th, 2009 13:38
Backed Killyglen/Snowy Morning to win. A small e/w on crazily long odds Mon Mome/War Of Attrition-(‘Miinnehoma’, no, I couldn’t resist it)
On the stats I’ve used, An Accordion and Kornati Kid are perfect except for the ‘last time out’. Hope I’ve picked the right two!
#96
November 28th, 2009 14:04
Big Bucks strolled up, are we all wrong to right off Denman later?
Just got a winner with Go Native (again) so maybe I can find the hennessy winner today.
Like you Crisp can’t let MM and WOA go at those prices, with a real chance, so put a little down there already. Now its just a question of picking between An Accordian, GTL, Killyglen, Snowy and SOP I think
#97
November 28th, 2009 14:21
just picked out Mount Oscar too, but failed to get on in time grr!
too busy looking at this go’damn tooo good renewal! studying too hard maybe, still can’t pick it
#98
November 28th, 2009 14:46
I know this thread all about the Hennessy, but the a good bet tomorrow I wish to share with you.
Just printed off Timeform’s card for Fairyhouse and in the one o’ clock race Dunguib is give timeform’s Big P which is rarely given.
#99
November 28th, 2009 14:55
Awesome performance from the tank – Niche Market will probably get clobbered by GTL might be interesting for GN
#100
November 28th, 2009 15:00
I think we’ve just seen the Gold Cup winner in Denman whose price went from 6/1 to 2/1 with Ladbrokes and Niche Market from that run my number one choice for the National.
#101
November 28th, 2009 15:00
should read but GTL
#102
November 28th, 2009 15:06
yep awesome, thank god I didn’t back anymore losers, had a feeling Denman could give us a tear jerking performance, what a tank! what a jumper!
Good pointers for the national, I am writing Snowy off after his latest eye catching plough through the last fence there.
#103
November 28th, 2009 15:10
Absolutely Brilliant, WOW – only one for the Gold Cup now.
Just as importantly Niche Market has to be a massive chance in the grand national
#104
November 28th, 2009 15:25
Depends how they rate Niche Market – beaten around 10 – 15 lengths getting 26 lbs – so actually he may get away with it if Denman is rated around 180 – 185. Ground against GTL (got my 5th place E/W – I think GTL finished 5th) and Snowy over this trip so I wouldn’t write them off just yet. Will be fascinating to see the handicapper’s reaction.
But don’t forget BA off 153 and COD off 154 – they only have one race in mind. Niche Market had a hard race.
#105
November 28th, 2009 15:37
Amazing race. Well done Denman.
#106
November 28th, 2009 16:29
Okay, the first five from this years Hennessy was, plus age come the spring:
2009 Denman (10)
What A Friend (7)
Niche Market (9)
Barbers Shop (8)
Gone To Lunch (10)
Because this was a strong renewal I am also putting down the next four to make the first nine.
Kornati Kid (8)
My Will (10)
Snowy Morning (10)
Nenuphar Collonges (9)
This is just for future reference for when the weights are published.
#107
November 28th, 2009 17:09
Well I think we can at least take Ballyfitz off the list, now…..
#108
November 28th, 2009 17:37
I think I have to write off Snowy for his occasional blunders, even though I like him and given a good round of jumping he obviously has a big chance. SOP was disappointing wasn’t he? well he went unnoticed for me
#109
November 28th, 2009 20:38
Mighty race.
Mon Mome, bless him, at that price we had to back him e.w.- he who dares.
Stat wise, the Denman factor always made it 2 races in 1. The amazing 19/20 stat just won the wrong race.
GN wise – Niche Market ran a cracker left-handed. Like HedgeHunter, he needs 1 more wee chase win and 1 or 2 more places, if his OR is ok.
#110
November 29th, 2009 11:12
That ‘last time out’ stat has only been broken now by horses who have been quite prolific, won 7 or more chases, (only Suny Bay in the last 20 runnings had won also won 7 chases) and had already performed extremely well, top 4, in a Hennessy.